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Author Topic: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice  (Read 788 times)

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Offline Chillbilly

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'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« on: August 11, 2017, 01:20:37 PM »
Gday Team,

Last night had the amazing light bulb realisation that adding hops to a still hot but not boiling wort
means that all the hop goodies can be extracted yet volatile aromatics will not be boiled away in the steam.

This may be old news to most of you,  but I`ve been out of the game for a few years and whilst I am
a big proponent of massive 'late' hopping ( i.e. 30 seconds to go ), I`ve never explored post boil hopping.

I`m aware that alpha acid isomerisation ( i.e. bitterness ) reactions still occur in hot wort, but the rate of isomerisation
I believe is about 1/4 of the speed at 80C ( based on obscure research I found years ago ).


So rather than add hops at flameout at say 99C ,  is it common practice to partially chill to wort ( say to 85C )
then steeping the hops at that temperature?

I reckon a lot of the terpenes would be volatile still at hotter temperatures,  but the extraction of goodies from the
hop material must work better at higher temps,  or is that a flawed assumption?


Any thoughts on any of this?

I`ve found the steep/whirlpool setting in beersmith,  but I havn't made it work to my satisfaction unless I add a late in boil hop adition.





Offline Chillbilly

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 01:26:23 PM »
I mean,   is a steep at 50C for 20 minutes just as good as a 3 day dry hop?

(  Disregarding infections etc )

Offline FishersFirst

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 02:42:35 PM »
I'm moving more and more towards doing this.
It's a tricky one in terms of calculating ibu's, and will be different depending on your setup, but yes, the idea of more hop aroma and flavours without the overt bitterness.

I'm doing a pale ale tonight with 10 ibu at 60 mins and then the rest of the 30 ibu (ish)  in the form of a flame out for 20 mins and then another addition as the temp will be down to 80~85C. So most of the bitterness from a FO and hop stand.
I'll do 2 separate dry hop additions too.

Offline Doomed

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 02:54:45 PM »
First, hot steeping/whirlpool additions and dry hopping are very different imho.  They contribute very different flavours and aromas, whirlpool additions lack the super bright and fresh fruit, citrus, green, resin (or whatever) hop charracters that dry hopping can give.  For me, dry hopping works best when there is plenty of late kettle hops to give more depth to the hop flavour and is less likely to come out green and grassy.  All depends on what you are brewing and trying to achieve.

When to whirlpool is again really about what you want from your whirlpool addition.  If you want to extract less bitterness then chill to less than 80°C. 

I haven't done any back to back batches comparing hopping at different whirlpool temps.  For big hoppy beers I usually hedge my bets and hop at flameout, wait 15 minutes, then whirlpool and hop again.  Temp only drops to 85°C in the coldest weather after 15 minutes on my system.  I won't actively chill it.

And yes, the Beersmith whirlpool settings are absolutely shit.

Offline Chillbilly

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 03:28:21 PM »
After I wrote the top post I was doing the mental analogy to a herbal vaporizer.
The vapour tastes better at low temperature settings  ( ~ less terpene break down, but less ahh goodies vaporised ),
but is much stronger at higher temperatures, but doesn't taste as good ( better extraction, more volatile breakdown ).

The difference with dry hopping is we have alcohol in the mix probably acting as a mild solvent to dissolve hop oils.

Offline Chillbilly

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 04:52:22 PM »
cuppla papers I found googling 'terpenes in hops' - reasonably old but definately sciencey ha ha

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1981.tb03996.x/pdf

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1968.tb03137.x/pdf






Offline Chillbilly

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 05:29:50 PM »
Forget those previous - this is a modern overview
Humulus lupulus – a story that begs to be told. A review
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.160/full

Offline Beerlust

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 07:45:37 PM »
Hi Chillbilly.

I've spent an enormous amount of time in my brewing studying & using different techniques with what must be around 60-70 varieties over many different styles of beer & in a home brewing environment, that still doesn't make me an expert on the subject. What at a bare minimum it does though is make me very learn-ed.

Quote from: Doomed
When to whirlpool is again really about what you want from your whirlpool addition.  If you want to extract less bitterness then chill to less than 80°C.
+1 to this 100%.

This 80°C temp is the biggest flavour pick-up point IMHO without adding any noticeable bitterness to the brew. Understand though that this entry point is also less enduring against boil entry points that will isomerize some fractions of alpha acids that contribute to bitterness as well as adding a more enduring hop flavour component.

As a side note, First Wort Hopping is a very good approach for introducing a more enduring hop flavour into your beer without adding a harsh bitterness as it allows for the gentle seeping release of hop oils prior to the beginning of the rolling boil that would normally isomerize the bulk of those alpha acids from a starting point in that area of the boil.

From my standpoint & practical research, it is a time vs temperature battle that brewers need to figure out their own balance for the tastes & overall flavours they desire. It is not a "one size fits all" approach.

Cheers & good brewing,

Lusty.
Awesome beer is just around the corner. I'll meet you there!

Offline labels

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 06:49:03 PM »
First wort hopping works very in lagers where you don't want any resinous, grassy flavours which usually come with late hopping and dry hopping. It still lets the hops shine through in a way that suits lagers particularly well.

I don't use the technique in APA's IPA's etc, these beers have very robust hop flavours that are usually accompanied with a robust malt profile containing a fair chunk of crystal malts. Don't work with lagers though, FWH certainly has a place here.
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Offline Hatchy

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 10:05:32 PM »
cuppla papers I found googling 'terpenes in hops' - reasonably old but definately sciencey ha ha

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1981.tb03996.x/pdf

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1968.tb03137.x/pdf

The first one is from 1980 isn't it? Not really old considering that beer has been around for a thousand years or however long it is. I don't know if Jayse still reads the forums, but he's always saying that no one has done any proper scientific investigation into hops - it looks like he's wrong.
I have nothing interesting to add here.

Offline Beerlust

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 11:19:15 PM »
The first one is from 1980 isn't it? Not really old considering that beer has been around for a thousand years or however long it is.

Sorry mate, it is old,... it's 37 years old! Thus many of the ideals expressed are on the hops of the day. The hops of the day were all low alpha "noble" type hops, boring with little diversity of character. Thus weights used were similar & created similar scenarios.

Hop development in the last 10-15 years has produced an incredibly diverse variety of hops that have a massive difference to the noble varieties over all aspects & makeup.

If you want to understand how much hops have changed over the years & a theory to now see that is outdated, then look at "Garetz Theory" for IBU calculation that is based on boil volume size. In essence the theory is based on older noble hop variety alpha levels (at the time of the theory construction) & how a sheer weight of hops impacts against a certain volume of water/liquid. With the advent of modern new world hops of high alpha level, much of the basis of Garetz theory around diminished outputs from hops in lower volumes of liquid no longer applies as a vastly lower weight of hops can now be utilized by the brewer by using any number of the many high alpha hops to produce the same levels of bitterness/IBU.

Cheers,

Lusty.
Awesome beer is just around the corner. I'll meet you there!

Offline Hatchy

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 02:25:17 AM »
The paper is 37 years old. Beer is ~3,900 years old.

I googled garetz theory and came up with some forum posts and this - I've got no idea what I'm reading here. http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/15/8/083006/meta
I have nothing interesting to add here.

Offline punkin

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 05:14:26 AM »
Nevertheless outdated.
http://www.stilldragon.com.au/ for all your distilling related needs.

Offline Beerlust

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 10:09:07 AM »
Hi Hatchy.

The paper is 37 years old. Beer is ~3,900 years old.

I googled garetz theory and came up with some forum posts and this - I've got no idea what I'm reading here. http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1367-2630/15/8/083006/meta

I'm not sure what you have found there?

There are (I still believe?) 3 recognized formulas for IBU calculation, Tinseth (the most widely accepted), Rager, & Garetz.

Garetz theory for IBU calculation was devised by Mark Garetz (hence the name) & unlike the other two formulas, takes boil volume & a Hop Concentration Factor (HCF) into consideration to calculate IBU.

In a nutshell if too much weight of hops is placed in a certain volume of wort/liquid then bitterness (IBU) is affected. At the time the theory was devised there were only lowish alpha hops available so the theory still holds true in that regard, but with the advent of many new high alpha hops, a dramatically smaller weight can now be used to achieve intended IBU levels without overcrowding the wort with too much hop weight under smaller boil volume conditions.

The quality of beer has changed significantly over the ages. I doubt I could stomach a beer made under the premise of what was produced ~3900yrs ago!  :sign0137:

Cheers,

Lusty.
Awesome beer is just around the corner. I'll meet you there!

Offline Chillbilly

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 11:15:50 AM »
With respect to 4000 y.o. ale, 4000 years ago you'd have fkn loved it!

After building pyramids all day, nothing hits the spot like a catacomb chilled,  spit fermented buzz bomb.

Imagine the yeast funk.

Offline Hatchy

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 11:55:44 AM »
With respect to 4000 y.o. ale, 4000 years ago you'd have fkn loved it!

After building pyramids all day, nothing hits the spot like a catacomb chilled,  spit fermented buzz bomb.

Imagine the yeast funk.

As they say, a hard day's pyramid making deserves a big ambient prehistoric beer.
I have nothing interesting to add here.

Offline punkin

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 01:04:25 PM »
And the best ambient prehistoric beer is VIC!
http://www.stilldragon.com.au/ for all your distilling related needs.

Offline Beerlust

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 04:17:13 PM »
With respect to 4000 y.o. ale, 4000 years ago you'd have fkn loved it!

That's a bold claim given you didn't even know me back then! LOL

I've had 53 reincarnations since then!

Cheers,

Lusty.
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Offline labels

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2017, 08:01:59 PM »
The first one is from 1980 isn't it? Not really old considering that beer has been around for a thousand years or however long it is.

Sorry mate, it is old,... it's 37 years old! Thus many of the ideals expressed are on the hops of the day. The hops of the day were all low alpha "noble" type hops, boring with little diversity of character.

Sorry Mate, 'Noble' hops are NOT boring and with little diversity of character, neither are the beers that use them that cover most German and Czech beers amongst many other beers in Europe.

I think what you're trying to say is, you can't see past American beers and their respective hop bombs and anything that doesn't use them is boring. Hop bombs are not for everybody.
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Offline GlycolGlen

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Re: 'Whirlpool' hopping discussion and advice
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2017, 08:04:42 PM »
Larger the 2nd best beer....